New RX-8 Owner w/ Brake Questions
01-31-2009 | 09:45 AM
#1
Thread Starter
No, you are not my father
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 58
Likes: 4
From: South Carolina
New RX-8 Owner w/ Brake Questions
Long time lurker here . . .
Just picked up an '04 RX-8 with 49K miles yesterday. It has a very noticeable brake vibration. I intend to track this car - probably not until summer or fall, though. I feel I need to deal with this immediately because it's already driving me up the wall. Since the car will ultimately see the track (and some occasional auto-x duty), I'm thinking complete rotor and pad replacement. Right now, I'm thinking of OE replacement rotors and performance street pads, and swap in a set of track pads when the time comes. (My wife didn't like the squealing Hawk HP+'s on our old Miata - especially when going through the drive-through dropping our son off at pre-school
) I've considered having the rotors turned as a short-term fix, but feel that will be money wasted since I'll definitely go through the brakes prior to putting it on track.
All that to get to this question - any reservations from the group with using OE replacement rotors on the track? I used Brembo OE replacements and the Hawk HP+'s on the Miata and had good results at Road Atlanta. FWIW, I'm a novice at track days (2 events at RA), but a fairly experienced autocrosser. Right now I'm looking at the Centric and Raybestos rotors available at RockAuto.com.
Later,
Luke
Just picked up an '04 RX-8 with 49K miles yesterday. It has a very noticeable brake vibration. I intend to track this car - probably not until summer or fall, though. I feel I need to deal with this immediately because it's already driving me up the wall. Since the car will ultimately see the track (and some occasional auto-x duty), I'm thinking complete rotor and pad replacement. Right now, I'm thinking of OE replacement rotors and performance street pads, and swap in a set of track pads when the time comes. (My wife didn't like the squealing Hawk HP+'s on our old Miata - especially when going through the drive-through dropping our son off at pre-school
) I've considered having the rotors turned as a short-term fix, but feel that will be money wasted since I'll definitely go through the brakes prior to putting it on track.All that to get to this question - any reservations from the group with using OE replacement rotors on the track? I used Brembo OE replacements and the Hawk HP+'s on the Miata and had good results at Road Atlanta. FWIW, I'm a novice at track days (2 events at RA), but a fairly experienced autocrosser. Right now I'm looking at the Centric and Raybestos rotors available at RockAuto.com.
Later,
Luke
01-31-2009 | 10:07 AM
#4
justjim
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 345
Likes: 6
From: St. Petersburg, Florida
Before you do anything go out and rebed your existing brake pads agressively in several rebedding procedures. Your rotors most likely have uneven pad deposits on them from the previous owner overdriving the pad thermal range. Pad deposits can often be removed by rebedding the pads. This works better with a new set of high temp range pads but I'm betting you can do it with the existing pads. Worst case scenario it won't work and then you can have the rotors turned and put new pads on. OEM rotors are fine at the track as long as you have the proper pad. If you're new to tracking you may get by with street performance pads like Hawk HP plus or Axxis Ultimates. If you've got some track experience you should run a set of dedicated track only pads such as Cobalts or Carbotechs and you will get better results. If you're determined to throw money at the car you can spring for a set of 2 piece floating hat rotors such as at www.racingbrake.com .
If you don't know how to rebed the pads, this is the general procedure (every manufacturer has a slight variation on this general theme). Find a road where you can do 5-6 hard braking events from 70 to 20mph without stopping. I use a place where I can do 2 or 3 and just do a uturn at 10mph and do 2-3 more. You want to get the pads up near the top of their thermal range without ever coming to a complete stop then drive around for 10-15 minutes without stopping to let them cool down. Do another set of 5-6 if necessary.
Modern pads get a significant portion of their friction through adherent friction. Under normal operation brake pads lay down an even layer of pad material on the surface of the rotor which helps increase the coefficient of friction (mu) of the brake system. If the pads exceed their operating thermal range the deposits become an uneven splotchy layer of pad material that cause a pulsing pedal and lead to the myth of the warp rotor that is so commonly believed. If you can't rebed the deposits off, you can always turn the rotor for a fresh face and rebed the pads afterward for a fresh layer. Being able to remove pad deposits by rebedding is an important tool as slotted and drilled rotors cannot be easily turned and having to buy new rotors because of pad deposits isn't a cost effective way of dealing with a common problem
If you use the OEM brake shims and apply high temperature synthetic brake grease to the backs of the pads and shims your new pad won't squeal.
Last edited by justjim; 01-31-2009 at 11:39 AM.
01-31-2009 | 11:57 AM
#6
Doubtful that anybody has actually warped a rotor. Rotors may crack, they may score, and they may wear thin, but it is rare (usually in an alternate universe) that they actually warp. Uneven pad deposits on rotor faces from overdriving the thermal range of the pad account for virtually all of the "I warped my rotors" situations. The myth is persistent because it sounds plausible, their friends keep repeating it, and people fix their "warped" rotor by turning the rotor or replacing it, when what they really are doing is mechanically scraping off pad deposits or just starting with a clean new rotor. Pad deposits can be measured with a micrometer and may appear as a "warped" rotor. I used to track a FWD Acura which was much harder on the brakes than our RX8. Before I switched to dedicated track pads I once had pad deposits so bad after a track day that I stopped on the side of the highway twice to check for broken suspension and brake components. I cured the pad deposits with a double bedding procedure and a new set of brake pads. I put 123,000 miles and 16 hard track days at Sebring on 3 sets of rotors (I cracked 3 rotors) on the Acura and never warped any rotors or had them turned and they were as smooth as butter.
Before you do anything go out and rebed your existing brake pads agressively in several rebedding procedures. Your rotors most likely have uneven pad deposits on them from the previous owner overdriving the pad thermal range. Pad deposits can often be removed by rebedding the pads. This works better with a new set of high temp range pads but I'm betting you can do it with the existing pads. Worst case scenario it won't work and then you can have the rotors turned and put new pads on. OEM rotors are fine at the track as long as you have the proper pad. If you're new to tracking you may get by with street performance pads like Hawk HP plus or Axxis Ultimates. If you've got some track experience you should run a set of dedicated track only pads such as Cobalts or Carbotechs and you will get better results. If you're determined to throw money at the car you can spring for a set of 2 piece floating hat rotors such as at www.racingbrake.com .
If you don't know how to rebed the pads, this is the general procedure (every manufacturer has a slight variation on this general theme). Find a road where you can do 5-6 hard braking events from 70 to 20mph without stopping. I use a place where I can do 2 or 3 and just do a uturn at 10mph and do 2-3 more. You want to get the pads up near the top of their thermal range without ever coming to a complete stop then drive around for 10-15 minutes without stopping to let them cool down. Do another set of 5-6 if necessary.
Modern pads get a significant portion of their friction through adherent friction. Under normal operation brake pads lay down an even layer of pad material on the surface of the rotor which helps increase the coefficient of friction (mu) of the brake system. If the pads exceed their operating thermal range the deposits become an uneven splotchy layer of pad material that cause a pulsing pedal and lead to the myth of the warp rotor that is so commonly believed. If you can't rebed the deposits off, you can always turn the rotor for a fresh face and rebed the pads afterward for a fresh layer. Being able to remove pad deposits by rebedding is an important tool as slotted and drilled rotors cannot be easily turned and having to buy new rotors because of pad deposits isn't a cost effective way of dealing with a common problem
If you use the OEM brake shims and apply high temperature synthetic brake grease to the backs of the pads and shims your new pad won't squeal.
Before you do anything go out and rebed your existing brake pads agressively in several rebedding procedures. Your rotors most likely have uneven pad deposits on them from the previous owner overdriving the pad thermal range. Pad deposits can often be removed by rebedding the pads. This works better with a new set of high temp range pads but I'm betting you can do it with the existing pads. Worst case scenario it won't work and then you can have the rotors turned and put new pads on. OEM rotors are fine at the track as long as you have the proper pad. If you're new to tracking you may get by with street performance pads like Hawk HP plus or Axxis Ultimates. If you've got some track experience you should run a set of dedicated track only pads such as Cobalts or Carbotechs and you will get better results. If you're determined to throw money at the car you can spring for a set of 2 piece floating hat rotors such as at www.racingbrake.com .
If you don't know how to rebed the pads, this is the general procedure (every manufacturer has a slight variation on this general theme). Find a road where you can do 5-6 hard braking events from 70 to 20mph without stopping. I use a place where I can do 2 or 3 and just do a uturn at 10mph and do 2-3 more. You want to get the pads up near the top of their thermal range without ever coming to a complete stop then drive around for 10-15 minutes without stopping to let them cool down. Do another set of 5-6 if necessary.
Modern pads get a significant portion of their friction through adherent friction. Under normal operation brake pads lay down an even layer of pad material on the surface of the rotor which helps increase the coefficient of friction (mu) of the brake system. If the pads exceed their operating thermal range the deposits become an uneven splotchy layer of pad material that cause a pulsing pedal and lead to the myth of the warp rotor that is so commonly believed. If you can't rebed the deposits off, you can always turn the rotor for a fresh face and rebed the pads afterward for a fresh layer. Being able to remove pad deposits by rebedding is an important tool as slotted and drilled rotors cannot be easily turned and having to buy new rotors because of pad deposits isn't a cost effective way of dealing with a common problem
If you use the OEM brake shims and apply high temperature synthetic brake grease to the backs of the pads and shims your new pad won't squeal.
01-31-2009 | 12:05 PM
#7
Young Skywalker,
Nothing wrong with stock rotors at the track, LOTS of guys here do it and they hold up fairly well.
Not sure how much OEM's go for but I have a set of Racing Break rotors that weren't too expensive. I highly recommend the Hawk Ceramic pads.
Also, look into replacing the brake lines with Stainless Steel and a brace for the Master Cylinder. (ever seen how much that guy bounces around when you just push the pedal?) For that, you can either buy a brace from Richard Paul (the guy who makes the world famous short shifters) or you can get a Mazdaspeed strut bar that has a brake brace.
Nothing wrong with stock rotors at the track, LOTS of guys here do it and they hold up fairly well.
Not sure how much OEM's go for but I have a set of Racing Break rotors that weren't too expensive. I highly recommend the Hawk Ceramic pads.
Also, look into replacing the brake lines with Stainless Steel and a brace for the Master Cylinder. (ever seen how much that guy bounces around when you just push the pedal?) For that, you can either buy a brace from Richard Paul (the guy who makes the world famous short shifters) or you can get a Mazdaspeed strut bar that has a brake brace.
01-31-2009 | 07:40 PM
#8
Thread Starter
No, you are not my father
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 58
Likes: 4
From: South Carolina
Thanks for the replies!
Regarding re-bedding - that thought was in the back of my mind, but now that y'all brought it up, I'll definitely give it a shot.
I was working on cleaning the car up today and noticed that there is a distinct outline of the pad on the driver's front rotor. I'm assuming that's the culprit.
I certainly am not looking to throw money at the car. Moving from a 1993 Miata budget to a 2004 RX-8 budget doesn't leave as much room for experimentation. I'm looking to make informed decisions.
Regarding costs - per set (all 4 corners):
Raybestos @ Rock Auto = $225.16
OEM @ Onlinemazdaparts.com = $446.24
Racing Brake Slotted One-Piece = $463.84
If the re-bedding fixes the issue, then I've got some time to save up and possibly splurge a bit, but in the long run, I just want what works. I'm not looking to impress anyone with the parts on my car - I just want what's safe and reliable for track duty without breaking the bank. I'm willing to spend the extra money if I know I'll get something concrete in return.
If I was only comparing the OEM Mazda rotors to the Racing Brake ones, it's a no-brainer at less than $20 difference, but when you bring the Rock Auto prices into the mix, the decision to spend the extra money becomes harder.
Later,
Luke
Regarding re-bedding - that thought was in the back of my mind, but now that y'all brought it up, I'll definitely give it a shot.
I was working on cleaning the car up today and noticed that there is a distinct outline of the pad on the driver's front rotor. I'm assuming that's the culprit.
I certainly am not looking to throw money at the car. Moving from a 1993 Miata budget to a 2004 RX-8 budget doesn't leave as much room for experimentation. I'm looking to make informed decisions.
Regarding costs - per set (all 4 corners):
Raybestos @ Rock Auto = $225.16
OEM @ Onlinemazdaparts.com = $446.24
Racing Brake Slotted One-Piece = $463.84
If the re-bedding fixes the issue, then I've got some time to save up and possibly splurge a bit, but in the long run, I just want what works. I'm not looking to impress anyone with the parts on my car - I just want what's safe and reliable for track duty without breaking the bank. I'm willing to spend the extra money if I know I'll get something concrete in return.
If I was only comparing the OEM Mazda rotors to the Racing Brake ones, it's a no-brainer at less than $20 difference, but when you bring the Rock Auto prices into the mix, the decision to spend the extra money becomes harder.
Later,
Luke
02-28-2009 | 01:04 PM
#10
Thread Starter
No, you are not my father
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 58
Likes: 4
From: South Carolina
Update -
Tried re-bedding the pads about 3 weeks ago - no discernable change.
Took the front rotors off last Sat. and had them turned - huge difference. Best $21 spent on the car so far! I thought about cleaning them off myself, but figured that since I was that far in, what was an extra few bucks and an hour or so to let someone turn them and pick up some brake cleaner.
Now to decide what I'll do about tracking the car. Part of me says to pick another weekend and turn the rears (assuming there's enough meat left) and pick a good set of pads for my first time out with the RX-8 - probably Hawk HP+ or Black. The other part of me says to save up for the Racing Brake one-piece fronts and a set of new stock (Raybestos from Rock Auto) rears combined with a good set of pads.
My intent is to hit a couple of auto-x'es next month to try the car out and then aim for the NASA event at Road Atlanta in June.
Also, thanks to Jedi54 for the tip on the master cylinder brace. I'll be looking into that as well. Braided lines are in my plans, but not for a while. One change at a time . . . .
Later,
Luke
Tried re-bedding the pads about 3 weeks ago - no discernable change.
Took the front rotors off last Sat. and had them turned - huge difference. Best $21 spent on the car so far!
I thought about cleaning them off myself, but figured that since I was that far in, what was an extra few bucks and an hour or so to let someone turn them and pick up some brake cleaner.Now to decide what I'll do about tracking the car. Part of me says to pick another weekend and turn the rears (assuming there's enough meat left) and pick a good set of pads for my first time out with the RX-8 - probably Hawk HP+ or Black. The other part of me says to save up for the Racing Brake one-piece fronts and a set of new stock (Raybestos from Rock Auto) rears combined with a good set of pads.
My intent is to hit a couple of auto-x'es next month to try the car out and then aim for the NASA event at Road Atlanta in June.
Also, thanks to Jedi54 for the tip on the master cylinder brace. I'll be looking into that as well. Braided lines are in my plans, but not for a while. One change at a time . . . .
Later,
Luke
06-18-2009 | 02:43 AM
#11
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Doubtful that anybody has actually warped a rotor. Rotors may crack, they may score, and they may wear thin, but it is rare (usually in an alternate universe) that they actually warp. Uneven pad deposits on rotor faces from overdriving the thermal range of the pad account for virtually all of the "I warped my rotors" situations. The myth is persistent because it sounds plausible, their friends keep repeating it, and people fix their "warped" rotor by turning the rotor or replacing it, when what they really are doing is mechanically scraping off pad deposits or just starting with a clean new rotor. Pad deposits can be measured with a micrometer and may appear as a "warped" rotor. I used to track a FWD Acura parts which was much harder on the brakes than our RX8. Before I switched to dedicated track pads I once had pad deposits so bad after a track day that I stopped on the side of the highway twice to check for broken suspension and brake components. I cured the pad deposits with a double bedding procedure and a new set of brake pads. I put 123,000 miles and 16 hard track days at Sebring on 3 sets of rotors (I cracked 3 rotors) on the Acura and never warped any rotors or had them turned and they were as smooth as butter.
Before you do anything go out and rebed your existing brake pads agressively in several rebedding procedures. Your rotors most likely have uneven pad deposits on them from the previous owner overdriving the pad thermal range. Pad deposits can often be removed by rebedding the pads. This works better with a new set of high temp range pads but I'm betting you can do it with the existing pads. Worst case scenario it won't work and then you can have the rotors turned and put new pads on. OEM rotors are fine at the track as long as you have the proper pad. If you're new to tracking you may get by with street performance pads like Hawk HP plus or Axxis Ultimates. If you've got some track experience you should run a set of dedicated track only pads such as Cobalts or Carbotechs and you will get better results. If you're determined to throw money at the car you can spring for a set of 2 piece floating hat rotors such as at racingbrake.com .
If you don't know how to rebed the pads, this is the general procedure (every manufacturer has a slight variation on this general theme). Find a road where you can do 5-6 hard braking events from 70 to 20mph without stopping. I use a place where I can do 2 or 3 and just do a uturn at 10mph and do 2-3 more. You want to get the pads up near the top of their thermal range without ever coming to a complete stop then drive around for 10-15 minutes without stopping to let them cool down. Do another set of 5-6 if necessary.
.
Before you do anything go out and rebed your existing brake pads agressively in several rebedding procedures. Your rotors most likely have uneven pad deposits on them from the previous owner overdriving the pad thermal range. Pad deposits can often be removed by rebedding the pads. This works better with a new set of high temp range pads but I'm betting you can do it with the existing pads. Worst case scenario it won't work and then you can have the rotors turned and put new pads on. OEM rotors are fine at the track as long as you have the proper pad. If you're new to tracking you may get by with street performance pads like Hawk HP plus or Axxis Ultimates. If you've got some track experience you should run a set of dedicated track only pads such as Cobalts or Carbotechs and you will get better results. If you're determined to throw money at the car you can spring for a set of 2 piece floating hat rotors such as at racingbrake.com .
If you don't know how to rebed the pads, this is the general procedure (every manufacturer has a slight variation on this general theme). Find a road where you can do 5-6 hard braking events from 70 to 20mph without stopping. I use a place where I can do 2 or 3 and just do a uturn at 10mph and do 2-3 more. You want to get the pads up near the top of their thermal range without ever coming to a complete stop then drive around for 10-15 minutes without stopping to let them cool down. Do another set of 5-6 if necessary.
.
Last edited by zacknolden; 06-22-2009 at 10:08 PM.
06-19-2009 | 09:33 AM
#12
justjim
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 345
Likes: 6
From: St. Petersburg, Florida
What Racing Brake kit are you referring to? You can get 1-piece rotors, 2-piece rotors, calipers upgrades, Big Brake kits, and various pads from www.racingbrake.com .
Carbotech pads are available direct from Carbotech www.ctbrakes.com. You have to call them at the phone number on the website 1-877-899-5024, you can't order online. Just give em a call.
Carbotech pads are available direct from Carbotech www.ctbrakes.com. You have to call them at the phone number on the website 1-877-899-5024, you can't order online. Just give em a call.
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