Sway bar comparo... Opinions?
#26
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I have had RB springs/sways for close to a year. I put ths sways on a couple weeks before the springs and they where the biggest difference. It really eliminated a lot of body roll, the springs just made the car feel more sure footed. Eitherway I'm really happy with how the car handles.
Also the whole RB setup isn't a whole lot stiffer than OEM, so most roads won't kill your back.
Also the whole RB setup isn't a whole lot stiffer than OEM, so most roads won't kill your back.
#27
Frankly, I'd like to see lap times that show how any street driver could care whether they have the stock bars or ones that are stiffer. Change the shocks/springs and you'll have a smile on your face for sure.
I'd guess the only way you will notice any sway bar difference is if your suspension is soft enough for your grandmother to go and get the groceries.
QBallz, I agree with your comments, but I bet if you put the springs on first and then the did the sway upgrade later, you would likely comment the other way around.
I'd guess the only way you will notice any sway bar difference is if your suspension is soft enough for your grandmother to go and get the groceries.
QBallz, I agree with your comments, but I bet if you put the springs on first and then the did the sway upgrade later, you would likely comment the other way around.
#28
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Originally Posted by iridearocket
Frankly, I'd like to see lap times that show how any street driver could care whether they have the stock bars or ones that are stiffer. Change the shocks/springs and you'll have a smile on your face for sure.
I'd guess the only way you will notice any sway bar difference is if your suspension is soft enough for your grandmother to go and get the groceries.
QBallz, I agree with your comments, but I bet if you put the springs on first and then the did the sway upgrade later, you would likely comment the other way around.
I'd guess the only way you will notice any sway bar difference is if your suspension is soft enough for your grandmother to go and get the groceries.
QBallz, I agree with your comments, but I bet if you put the springs on first and then the did the sway upgrade later, you would likely comment the other way around.
#29
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
a pure racing setup tends to go with overly stiff springs and light bars, so there's no need to upgrade the OE bars if the spring rates are very high
a pure street setup tends to go with overly stiff bars and light sprinds, so change the bars only
or somewhere inbetween, change them both in a relative fashion
RB --> soft springs & stiffer bars
MS --> soft bars and stiffer springs
you could go with the RB bars only with the OE springs/shocks or the MS springs/shocks with the OE bars, it will all boil down to how far you want to push the envelope
neither in any configuration will be as smooth riding as OE nor have the performance of full racing shocks & springs, it all boils down to what your intention is and what you're willing to give up in exchange for what you receive
a pure street setup tends to go with overly stiff bars and light sprinds, so change the bars only
or somewhere inbetween, change them both in a relative fashion
RB --> soft springs & stiffer bars
MS --> soft bars and stiffer springs
you could go with the RB bars only with the OE springs/shocks or the MS springs/shocks with the OE bars, it will all boil down to how far you want to push the envelope
neither in any configuration will be as smooth riding as OE nor have the performance of full racing shocks & springs, it all boils down to what your intention is and what you're willing to give up in exchange for what you receive
#31
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Close... but here's the real deal....in an email I received from Jim Langer, Racing Beat...
I requested this information from Jim Mederer, and he provided the following:
Front Bar: 2.2X stiffer than stock
Rear Bar: 2.1X stiffer than stock
Best regards,
Jim Langer
Racing Beat, Inc.
Front Bar: 2.2X stiffer than stock
Rear Bar: 2.1X stiffer than stock
Best regards,
Jim Langer
Racing Beat, Inc.
#32
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I just got a set of Racing Beat sways and the End links. I cant put into words how much better this car handles with them. the ride quality is only slightly worse, but the handling is a million times better. If you dont have them, get em. NOW!
#34
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Originally Posted by Wolverine
Anybody have Tanabe?
I have also seen a RB bar install, and was assisted on the MS bar install on my car.
My impressions.
Tanabe has equal improvements to both the front and rear bars...this results in keeping the nuetral feeling our cars have.
The Racing Beat bars are both significantly bigger than stock. They are heavy and require new hardware, which come with the bars. RB also recommends upgrading the endlinks, which are purchased seperately. In speaking with a rep from RB, they said they went at the sway bar by fitting the stiffest bar they could up front, and then trying to match it by increasing the rear bar.
The Mazdaspeed is a tiny bit bigger than the stock bars, but are significantly heavier given that they have a thicker wall than the stock bars. They definately made a big difference to the drive of the car. The increase on the two bars is not identical, so you end up having a thicker bar up front.
If you like the drive/feel of your ride now, then I would highly suggest the Tanabe bars. It gives you the best of both worlds. If your looking for something more aggressive, then the other bars may be better for your need.
I have no squeak from the MS setup. I have not heard any bad reviews from the friends who have Tanabe or RB. The only negatives I have heard about RB bars, is from a couple of people invovled in auto cross. Their opinion is that the front bar is too big/too stiff.
#35
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Originally Posted by kwescott
The only negatives I have heard about RB bars, is from a couple of people invovled in auto cross. Their opinion is that the front bar is too big/too stiff.
Just an FYI. Always take what us autocrossers say with a grain of salt - we have odd rules and specific goals which may not apply to a street car.
George
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Originally Posted by jskup1
Has anyone tried using MS Springs and shocks with the RB Sways?
#37
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
Was this from a stock class competitor? If so they are only installing the front bar, which is an unfair way to judge any front bar, at least for those who intend to install the bars as a matched pair. I'm in BS, and have installed the WL front bar, and found even it to be too stiff when matched to the stock rear bar.
Just an FYI. Always take what us autocrossers say with a grain of salt - we have odd rules and specific goals which may not apply to a street car.
George
Just an FYI. Always take what us autocrossers say with a grain of salt - we have odd rules and specific goals which may not apply to a street car.
George
#38
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What rates are the Tanabe bars? When I did the math, the rear looked like it was way stiffer than the front (in terms of % increase). Looked like a massive oversteer bar to me, but I couldn't find stiffness or wall thickness numbers for the bars so I could be wrong.
#39
Originally Posted by kwescott
I autocross as well. Most of those I know who are in BS are using a modified stock bar. But yes, the negative comments have come from those in the autocross world, and they were using just the front bar.
Thanks
#40
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
Originally Posted by rotarenvy
just to throw a spanner in the works. has anyone else noticed how the Japanese tuner's are neglecting swaybars from there line-up? autoexe and mazdaspeed seem like the only ones making them. the others it seems like they are relying on springs and shocks to control weight transfer. Even companies that tune with other brands parts, like LEG motor, don't seem to use them.
Another reason is that there is much more profit in a set of $2000 coilovers than a set of $400 sway bars.
Personally, after having the suspension in my Miata tuned with a diverse combination of sway bars, dampers, and coilovers, I'm a big believer in starting with dampers and/or coilovers, then deciding if you want to upgrade the sways after the springs & shocks are taken care of. But, since sways are cheap and easy to install, they tend to be the first mod most people do to the suspension.
If you dont mind me chiming in here. I did the bass-akwards thing and put RB sways on first. I appretiated the reduction in roll (IMO the stock 8 likes to roll TOO much); however, I noted a distinct tendency to understeer. Note the differences in stiffness that RB put into their bars. A distinct front bias which supports my observations. I recently put some JIC FLT-A2s on and that tendency to understeer really went away. Now the car wants to turn!!! Initial turn in is almost snappy w/o that scary feeling that the rear wants to come around.
Nevertheless, all this suspension work really took the fun out of pushing it on the street (safely.) Now the limits on the car are so up there, that I have to go that much faster to test skills. I am really not willing to do that with the car as it is set up. I will admit that it kinda is anti-climactic. Even worse is that dedicated racecars, or even weekend racers, will totally destroy me. I am kinda in a dead-zone between to fast for the street and to slow for hanging with the big boys.
Just a thought you may want to consider when doing your cost/benefit analysis.
Last edited by carbonRX8; 05-23-2006 at 09:44 PM.
#41
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Originally Posted by carbonRX8
Interesting that SSC has a comment on just this difference between Japan suspension tuners and US suspension tuners. George basically pre-quoted them (SSC must read this forum!!! ), but I didnt think about the $ factor. That is pretty smart.
If you dont mind me chiming in here. I did the bass-akwards thing and put RB sways on first. I appretiated the reduction in roll (IMO the stock 8 likes to roll TOO much); however, I noted a distinct tendency to understeer. Note the differences in stiffness that RB put into their bars. A distinct front bias which supports my observations. I recently put some JIC FLT-A2s on and that tendency to understeer really went away. Now the car wants to turn!!! Initial turn in is almost snappy w/o that scary feeling that the rear wants to come around.
Nevertheless, all this suspension work really took the fun out of pushing it on the street (safely.) Now the limits on the car are so up there, that I have to go that much faster to test skills. I am really not willing to do that with the car as it is set up. I will admit that it kinda is anti-climactic. Even worse is that dedicated racecars, or even weekend racers, will totally destroy me. I am kinda in a dead-zone between to fast for the street and to slow for hanging with the big boys.
Just a thought you may want to consider when doing your cost/benefit analysis.
If you dont mind me chiming in here. I did the bass-akwards thing and put RB sways on first. I appretiated the reduction in roll (IMO the stock 8 likes to roll TOO much); however, I noted a distinct tendency to understeer. Note the differences in stiffness that RB put into their bars. A distinct front bias which supports my observations. I recently put some JIC FLT-A2s on and that tendency to understeer really went away. Now the car wants to turn!!! Initial turn in is almost snappy w/o that scary feeling that the rear wants to come around.
Nevertheless, all this suspension work really took the fun out of pushing it on the street (safely.) Now the limits on the car are so up there, that I have to go that much faster to test skills. I am really not willing to do that with the car as it is set up. I will admit that it kinda is anti-climactic. Even worse is that dedicated racecars, or even weekend racers, will totally destroy me. I am kinda in a dead-zone between to fast for the street and to slow for hanging with the big boys.
Just a thought you may want to consider when doing your cost/benefit analysis.
On the RX-8, I just love the combination of D-Specs & T1-Rs. Much more responsive than stock, but the Toyos are just a blast to drift around on. Sure they don't have as much grip as Azenis and such, but they have such a nice big fat sweet spot they make me smile everytime I drift them through an apex.
#42
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Originally Posted by SDB
Can someone help with some more information on modifying the stock sway bar. I keep seeing references to this but am not sure of the details.
Thanks
Thanks
#44
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
I think you mean "...further towords the bend." Drilling a hole further towords the end will make the bar softer.
#45
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I run the RB bar. It kind of depends on what your goals and budget are as to which bar you want. The RB bar will make the most immediate and largest change to the handling of the car. When you put better tires on a car it tightens up, which is probably why so many people complain about the bigger bars in stock. It handles really well on street tires with this setup, with very little push. The transition speed is so much better it makes up for any push you get.
Now I've put better tires on my car, but not "race" tires. I'll see this weekend if it pushes too much with my current setup. I really want better shocks but not in the budget just yet...
Now I've put better tires on my car, but not "race" tires. I'll see this weekend if it pushes too much with my current setup. I really want better shocks but not in the budget just yet...
#46
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Originally Posted by MazdaRich
The RB bar will make the most immediate and largest change to the handling of the car.
In the end, though, I think this is a personal preference thing. Some well respected autocrossers have said they like the car with the larger front bar. I don't. The current BS champ thinks the Konis are worth 0.5 seconds, so in the end we may be splitting hairs. But, I know when I went from the WL bar back to stock, I went from being 0.8 seconds off the pace of a multi-time national champ (who's car has a stock front bar, Konis, and 710s) to being 0.15 second off, on the same lot. Not saying it was all the front bar but I do think the car is faster (for me) with the stock front bar.
But on stock shocks, the car may be faster with a BFB (big front bar). I've no experience with that configuration. I do recall people saying the push didn't arrive with the RB bar until they put the Konis on.
George
#47
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I agree. Sway bar controls roll. "Coilovers" control roll and pitch, and can improve braking (can tune weigh distribution) and acceleration (by removing tendency to hop.) PLUS you can tune all of this with a twist of your wrist. If you have the $ you can even have limited impact on NVH fpr daily driving (with olans and zeals.)
#48
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I want to make a clarification to one of my above posts. When I said that I was backing out the rear damping to compensate for the big front bar, I should have said that I was backing out the FRONT damping.
In other words, the car was pushing, even in the slaloms, so to compensate I was backing out front stiffness in the shocks. So, at best, my slalom speed was the same but the car was pushing in the sweepers, so I saw no upside.
Note that this is all "seat of the pants." No objective measurements to back it up. But on a nicely balanced car the RX-8, I don't see an upside to a front bar that is 50% or more stiffer than stock. The MS bar (or drilled stock) might be a nice option, though.
In other words, the car was pushing, even in the slaloms, so to compensate I was backing out front stiffness in the shocks. So, at best, my slalom speed was the same but the car was pushing in the sweepers, so I saw no upside.
Note that this is all "seat of the pants." No objective measurements to back it up. But on a nicely balanced car the RX-8, I don't see an upside to a front bar that is 50% or more stiffer than stock. The MS bar (or drilled stock) might be a nice option, though.
#49
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It seems lilke the RB bar is for a lack of a better word a band-aid to getting new springs/shocks.
And George, I've seen some 914's in action, they are wicked cars with a good driver behind the wheel. Cheers to you and the 8.
And George, I've seen some 914's in action, they are wicked cars with a good driver behind the wheel. Cheers to you and the 8.
Last edited by pianoman; 05-24-2006 at 08:51 PM.
#50
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
The current BS champ thinks the Konis are worth 0.5 seconds, so in the end we may be splitting hairs. George
Last edited by ULLLOSE; 05-24-2006 at 09:50 PM.