Track days, Cobalt Friction vs Carbotech
09-23-2009 | 10:04 AM
#26
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
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From: Colorado
It was downright scary to see the damage I'd done to those Hawks over just two days at WGI, when the same pad had lasted six days / three events and transiting 1,000 miles of B-roads / interstate with much less wear. After sitting down with a few other car owners, we decided it wasn't my braking technique so much as the difference between when I'd begun tracking at a braking-neutral course (VIR, two high-speed / no elevation change braking zones) to Watkins Glen (four high-speed / descending elevation braking zones and one flat heavy braking), plus gaining speed with experience.
In retrospect, those "enhanced street pads" never stood a chance. They had to endure much, much higher temperature and duration of braking than I'd ever used before, with a healthy engine to add further insult to injury.
Now I have to chime in with a question: Carbotech XP8 at all four corners as the next step up, or Hawk HP+, or the Cobalt? A fellow RX-8 owner/instructor at VIR favors the Carbotech brand, but I'm open to suggestion.
In retrospect, those "enhanced street pads" never stood a chance. They had to endure much, much higher temperature and duration of braking than I'd ever used before, with a healthy engine to add further insult to injury.
Now I have to chime in with a question: Carbotech XP8 at all four corners as the next step up, or Hawk HP+, or the Cobalt? A fellow RX-8 owner/instructor at VIR favors the Carbotech brand, but I'm open to suggestion.
.
09-23-2009 | 11:13 AM
#27
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I used the Carbotech XP10 at VIR for 2 days, it didn't show much wear either. Car wasn't fast enough to put a hurting on the pads, it wouldn't surprise me if it can really last 10 track days. (I gauge one day as about 100 miles).
1:43 sounds like a good time at Thunderbolt, is that flat out onto the front straight or did they put cones to slow down the car to prevent them from running on the white rumble strip? When I was there, they had stupid cones there to prevent us from going flat out onto the front straight.
1:43 sounds like a good time at Thunderbolt, is that flat out onto the front straight or did they put cones to slow down the car to prevent them from running on the white rumble strip? When I was there, they had stupid cones there to prevent us from going flat out onto the front straight.
09-23-2009 | 11:47 AM
#28
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
That was with the turn 3 blocked and replaced with the 3-turn chicane. It slows you down, but made me happy as the Porsche guys hated it (and spun out alot with their tail-happy cars), while I thought it was just the most fun ever! We were just warned not to use the white rumble strips as you enter the front straight, so I did an extra late apex past the left cone to avoid it altogether. Besides I figured running off track at 100+ as you turn onto the straight wouldn't end well there in the loose dirt!
Previous I'd done the standard configuration with times shown below. Now after so much time with the T3 chicane config, I'm pretty sure I could improve on the std config when I go again and as I have stickier tires now.
Standard config 1:40.547 ave speed 77.53
T3 Chicane config 1:43.392 ave speed 75.42
Previous I'd done the standard configuration with times shown below. Now after so much time with the T3 chicane config, I'm pretty sure I could improve on the std config when I go again and as I have stickier tires now.
Standard config 1:40.547 ave speed 77.53
T3 Chicane config 1:43.392 ave speed 75.42
Last edited by Spin9k; 09-23-2009 at 11:53 AM.
09-23-2009 | 12:08 PM
#29
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I ran it with the turn 3 chicane, but the last turn was blocked since I ran it the same weekend as the Star Mazda guys. We had to slow down to 92mph at the apex, I think most people do that at around 105? flat out?
That was with the turn 3 blocked and replaced with the 3-turn chicane. It slows you down, but made me happy as the Porsche guys hated it (and spun out alot with their tail-happy cars), while I thought it was just the most fun ever! We were just warned not to use the white rumble strips as you enter the front straight, so I did an extra late apex past the left cone to avoid it altogether. Besides I figured running off track at 100+ as you turn onto the straight wouldn't end well there in the loose dirt!
Previous I'd done the standard configuration with times shown below. Now after so much time with the T3 chicane config, I'm pretty sure I could improve on the std config when I go again and as I have stickier tires now.
Standard config 1:40.547 ave speed 77.53
T3 Chicane config 1:43.392 ave speed 75.42
Previous I'd done the standard configuration with times shown below. Now after so much time with the T3 chicane config, I'm pretty sure I could improve on the std config when I go again and as I have stickier tires now.
Standard config 1:40.547 ave speed 77.53
T3 Chicane config 1:43.392 ave speed 75.42
06-03-2015 | 06:44 PM
#30
resurrecting from the dead, but what I'm seeing is:
Carbotech XP10 (front) & XP8 (rear)
or
Cobalt XR2 (front) & XR5 (rear)
Does that sound about right? I'm looking to track my 8 again, just picked up a set of V710s for dirt cheap from tire-rack. Not sure how the tracks in Cali compare to the ones you guys are running, but I need to figure out a brake combo. I had previously been running HP+ on all 4 corners without much of an issue (Buttonwillow, WSIR, SOW, Laguna), granted those were on street tires...
Anyone have any new combinations of pads that they are liking more than the ones listed above that I should consider?
TIA,
PCS
Carbotech XP10 (front) & XP8 (rear)
or
Cobalt XR2 (front) & XR5 (rear)
Does that sound about right? I'm looking to track my 8 again, just picked up a set of V710s for dirt cheap from tire-rack. Not sure how the tracks in Cali compare to the ones you guys are running, but I need to figure out a brake combo. I had previously been running HP+ on all 4 corners without much of an issue (Buttonwillow, WSIR, SOW, Laguna), granted those were on street tires...
Anyone have any new combinations of pads that they are liking more than the ones listed above that I should consider?
TIA,
PCS
06-12-2015 | 09:38 AM
#31
Why do you think that you need less aggressive rear pads? I use Hawk DTC-60's at both ends and am very happy with them both on track and on the drives to and from the track where they make very little noise and don't have any bad behavior when cold.
07-30-2015 | 01:05 PM
#32
I'm not so sure I do anymore. Even the HP+ seem to work fine with the r-comps. I've been working on smoothing and evening out my braking, seems to be working just fine with less braking needed... I am getting some deposits on the rotor with the HP+, but not sure if that's from before or from the recent tracking with the r-comps on.
I know it's old tech, but it's cheap and it does the trick for the time being. Might play with Carbotechs XP10 or Hawk DTC-60s all the way around when the HP+ die...
I know it's old tech, but it's cheap and it does the trick for the time being. Might play with Carbotechs XP10 or Hawk DTC-60s all the way around when the HP+ die...
07-30-2015 | 01:17 PM
#33
Water Foul
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,521
Likes: 262
From: Republic of Texas
My next track day is in mid September, and I am planning to run Hawk DTC-30 front and HP Plus rear. Essentially, I am combining two nearly worn out sets of pads to squeeze a track day or two out of them. That is kind of the same idea. I'll see how it turns out.
As soon as those Hawks are finished off, I'll have the rotors turned and install the Carbotechs.
08-01-2015 | 09:13 AM
#34
With modern ABS you can probably get by with just about any pad combination, but it might not be ideal, as it's better to have the ABS not intervene. If one end's locking up too soon, then different pads can help get you a little better stopping performance by reducing the friction on that end, alleviating the early lockup. It's all complicated by heat, as one end will almost certainly be hotter than the other and friction levels of pads change with heat.
08-04-2015 | 08:04 PM
#35
I'm not getting lockup in the rear with the same pads all the way around, is anyone else having issues with too much brake in the rear?
on my rx7 that gets tracked, I ran into an issue where running Hawk Blues all the way around resulted in the tail locking up under hard braking before the fronts did, and switching to a compound with a lower coeff of friction in the rear seemed to help (i suppose I could always get a brake bias adjuster, haha)... never had this issue in the 8 - or at least have not yet.
On the flip side, if there's not enough brake in the rear compared to the fronts when running a staggered brake setup, i would assume that just cooks your fronts faster and ultimately limits your braking ability - so we basically want to be running as much brake in the rear as possible without locking them up prior to the front as much as possible, correct?
^as i think about this, seems like common sense... *facepalm*
on my rx7 that gets tracked, I ran into an issue where running Hawk Blues all the way around resulted in the tail locking up under hard braking before the fronts did, and switching to a compound with a lower coeff of friction in the rear seemed to help (i suppose I could always get a brake bias adjuster, haha)... never had this issue in the 8 - or at least have not yet.
On the flip side, if there's not enough brake in the rear compared to the fronts when running a staggered brake setup, i would assume that just cooks your fronts faster and ultimately limits your braking ability - so we basically want to be running as much brake in the rear as possible without locking them up prior to the front as much as possible, correct?
^as i think about this, seems like common sense... *facepalm*
09-30-2015 | 04:56 AM
#36
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Posts: 545
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From: Mid Atlantic
I've been using Hawk pads on BMW M3, Integra, Dodge SRT4, Miata. HP+ work well for street tires and beginner to intermediate driving ability. The Hawk Blue and Hawk DTC-60 are recommended for R-comps and advanced driving ability.
As others have mentioned, not dragging the brakes and braking firmly but briefly is one way to extend pad life. The other ways are to improve cooling to them and chose a pad material for the temperatures you are expecting.
I get almost 6 weekends of time trial competition out of the DTC-60 pads on my integra; granted it's a light weight, low power car with a wildwood brake kit. But they grab consistently and wear well.
JUST A HEADS UP- TireRack has the Hawk Blue and Hawk HP+ for a really good deal right now.
I just bought the RX-8 and will be testing it at Summit Point Shenandoah Circuit this weekend with Hawk Blues all around. Completely stock, 225/40/18 BFR Rivals and maxed front camber.
As others have mentioned, not dragging the brakes and braking firmly but briefly is one way to extend pad life. The other ways are to improve cooling to them and chose a pad material for the temperatures you are expecting.
I get almost 6 weekends of time trial competition out of the DTC-60 pads on my integra; granted it's a light weight, low power car with a wildwood brake kit. But they grab consistently and wear well.
JUST A HEADS UP- TireRack has the Hawk Blue and Hawk HP+ for a really good deal right now.
I just bought the RX-8 and will be testing it at Summit Point Shenandoah Circuit this weekend with Hawk Blues all around. Completely stock, 225/40/18 BFR Rivals and maxed front camber.
09-30-2015 | 04:59 AM
#37
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Posts: 545
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From: Mid Atlantic
09-30-2015 | 08:59 AM
#38
I've been using Hawk pads on BMW M3, Integra, Dodge SRT4, Miata. HP+ work well for street tires and beginner to intermediate driving ability. The Hawk Blue and Hawk DTC-60 are recommended for R-comps and advanced driving ability.
[...]
I get almost 6 weekends of time trial competition out of the DTC-60 pads on my integra; granted it's a light weight, low power car with a wildwood brake kit. But they grab consistently and wear well.
JUST A HEADS UP- TireRack has the Hawk Blue and Hawk HP+ for a really good deal right now.
I just bought the RX-8 and will be testing it at Summit Point Shenandoah Circuit this weekend with Hawk Blues all around. Completely stock, 225/40/18 BFR Rivals and maxed front camber.
[...]
I get almost 6 weekends of time trial competition out of the DTC-60 pads on my integra; granted it's a light weight, low power car with a wildwood brake kit. But they grab consistently and wear well.
JUST A HEADS UP- TireRack has the Hawk Blue and Hawk HP+ for a really good deal right now.
I just bought the RX-8 and will be testing it at Summit Point Shenandoah Circuit this weekend with Hawk Blues all around. Completely stock, 225/40/18 BFR Rivals and maxed front camber.
TireRack is selling HP+ for $111 plus shipping right now. EvilBay sellers have them for $96 delivered:
Hawk HB470N 643 HP Plus Brake Pads Mazda RX 8 2004 2009 | eBay I just bought another set a couple of weeks ago.
Congrats on the RX-8. I'll be instructing at the Shen this weekend, I'll look for you. Unfortunately I won't have my RX-8 as I have a serious vibration at-speed I've been unable to repair.
09-30-2015 | 11:52 AM
#39
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 545
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From: Mid Atlantic
You won't need DTC-60s for the RX-8. I run HP+ front and get 5 or 6 weekends on a set easy. Never any problems with fade, deposits, chunking, etc. and no break-in necessary. Slap them on and go. Even with a set of Hoosiers. Gentle on the rotors too as I've been running the same rotors for 3-4 years, 3 or so sets of pads. Shocking, really.
TireRack is selling HP+ for $111 plus shipping right now. EvilBay sellers have them for $96 delivered:
Hawk HB470N 643 HP Plus Brake Pads Mazda RX 8 2004 2009 | eBay I just bought another set a couple of weeks ago.
Congrats on the RX-8. I'll be instructing at the Shen this weekend, I'll look for you. Unfortunately I won't have my RX-8 as I have a serious vibration at-speed I've been unable to repair.
TireRack is selling HP+ for $111 plus shipping right now. EvilBay sellers have them for $96 delivered:
Hawk HB470N 643 HP Plus Brake Pads Mazda RX 8 2004 2009 | eBay I just bought another set a couple of weeks ago.
Congrats on the RX-8. I'll be instructing at the Shen this weekend, I'll look for you. Unfortunately I won't have my RX-8 as I have a serious vibration at-speed I've been unable to repair.
It looks like we're REALLY going to be swamped out this weekend, and Shenandoah gets slick with rain. And there's not much runoff...
Regardless, I look forward to seeing you there as well!
09-30-2015 | 01:30 PM
#40
Water Foul
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,521
Likes: 262
From: Republic of Texas
If your rear tires are being asked to do less braking (due to less friction from the less aggressive pad), your rear tires will have more available traction to keep the rear end in line. If the rear tires are actually asked to deliver everything they have under braking, no traction remains to keep the rear stable.
Here is a decent article on balancing brake pads and why one might want less aggressive pads on the rear.
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
BTW, now that I have driven on Carbotech pads, I will never look Hawk's way again. The difference in modulation and linearity is astounding. Reduced rotor wear is also nice.
09-30-2015 | 01:57 PM
#41
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 545
Likes: 57
From: Mid Atlantic
Eh. I understand how all that works. I was just being flippant. But thanks for posting the traction circle. People need to see it as much as possible.
Here is a decent article on balancing brake pads and why one might want less aggressive pads on the rear.
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
BTW, now that I have driven on Carbotech pads, I will never look Hawk's way again. The difference in modulation and linearity is astounding. Reduced rotor wear is also nice.
Here is a decent article on balancing brake pads and why one might want less aggressive pads on the rear.
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
BTW, now that I have driven on Carbotech pads, I will never look Hawk's way again. The difference in modulation and linearity is astounding. Reduced rotor wear is also nice.
09-30-2015 | 09:59 PM
#42
El Jefe
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,833
Likes: 7
kind of late to the party, but I picked up from blues for cheap a while back. did a few track days and I instantly loved them. My only complaint was under heavy braking the rear would tend to step out of line. I wouldn't hesitate to run them in the front again, but I will be switching to a less aggressive pad in the rear. Possibly an HP+.
I daily drove on them...My RPF1's hate me. I'm going to have to strip and powdercoat them soon. The brake dust ate through the finish.
I daily drove on them...My RPF1's hate me. I'm going to have to strip and powdercoat them soon. The brake dust ate through the finish.
10-01-2015 | 04:49 AM
#43
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 545
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From: Mid Atlantic
kind of late to the party, but I picked up from blues for cheap a while back. did a few track days and I instantly loved them. My only complaint was under heavy braking the rear would tend to step out of line. I wouldn't hesitate to run them in the front again, but I will be switching to a less aggressive pad in the rear. Possibly an HP+.
I daily drove on them...My RPF1's hate me. I'm going to have to strip and powdercoat them soon. The brake dust ate through the finish.
I daily drove on them...My RPF1's hate me. I'm going to have to strip and powdercoat them soon. The brake dust ate through the finish.
Sounds like my brake bias may be off a bit... i'll have to experiment with different compounds next go around.
But I've heard that powdercoating aluminum wheels is bad for them; reduces their strength. Maybe it's unsubstantiated, but i'd look into it.
10-02-2015 | 01:51 PM
#44
El Jefe
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,833
Likes: 7
I powdercoat as a hobby/side hustle. I would say it's unsubstantiated due to the experience by myself and others on the track with coated wheels... I'm also not a metallurgist. So take that with a grain of salt
10-02-2015 | 03:13 PM
#45
How hot do you get the wheels? Annealing (softening) starts somewhere north of 750° F for aluminum, I think.
10-02-2015 | 03:14 PM
#46
Powder coating wheels involves heating them, which could affect the strength, as a large part of the strength of an aluminum wheel is determined by the heat treatment it gets.
Without knowing everything in detail about the alloy, heat treatment, and powder coating process, I'd be very reluctant to powder coat aluminum wheels.
Without knowing everything in detail about the alloy, heat treatment, and powder coating process, I'd be very reluctant to powder coat aluminum wheels.
10-03-2015 | 12:24 AM
#47
El Jefe
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,833
Likes: 7
Powder coating wheels involves heating them, which could affect the strength, as a large part of the strength of an aluminum wheel is determined by the heat treatment it gets.
Without knowing everything in detail about the alloy, heat treatment, and powder coating process, I'd be very reluctant to powder coat aluminum wheels.
Without knowing everything in detail about the alloy, heat treatment, and powder coating process, I'd be very reluctant to powder coat aluminum wheels.
10-03-2015 | 10:09 AM
#48
I had a quick look online and 400 degrees is well within the range of temperatures that WILL affect the properties of aluminum, in this case, "aging". Now 10 minutes is probably not long enough to make significant changes, it's something to keep in mind.
10-03-2015 | 11:49 AM
#49
10-03-2015 | 07:23 PM
#50
El Jefe
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,833
Likes: 7
further research leads me to a new process I'll try. 375degree PMT for longer duration should yield the same results with little to no annealing of the aluminum... Thanks