waltsacura

I recently bought a 6spd. manual 2009 RX-8 R3 from a very good friend of mine, it has less than 12K miles on it, he was the original owner. Under his ownership of the car, the transmission has this really weird thing where sometimes it would grind between shifts with your clutch all the way to the floor. It would happen when it was cold or hot, it has done it in every gear except for 1st to 2nd, and I can't isolate a time when it does it more or even make it do it intentionally. When my friend owned it the dealership verified the trans was acting really odd and they took it all apart under warranty and replaced several syncro gears and a few other parts. They put it all back together and it still did the same thing, so their answer was to drain 50% of the gear oil out and add ATF to the transmission. It seems ok for a while. I recently bought the car and have put a few hundred miles on it, and the issue is back and it happens to me about every other time I drive the car. It has refused to go into first gear int he past, until I shifted the box around a bit and then got it to go in. Needless to say, it's extremely frustrating when it happens as I'm extremely good at shifting, and it makes me feel like a noob even though it's not my fault. now for the fun part...

I dropped the car off at the same dealership that did the work, and told them the issue was still happening and I would like them to take a look at it again and see that it gets fixed correctly. They called me back two days later and told me they have driven the car 6 times and they will not acknowledge that there is any issue with the transmission and they say its working perfectly. I asked them to keep driving the car (the service managers have been driving it according to what I was told), and asked them to consider the past issues the car has had, so I'm really not sure what to do at this point. I love this car's handling abilities and precision driving experience, but not sure what my next step is other than let the dealership keep logging miles on my car in the hope they can figure it out. I also asked them to take the atf out of the gearbox and put back in the car what was supposed to be in there in the first place, their trick obviously did nothing. They have not done this at this point.

I may also see if I can go out with a tech in the car taking turns driving it and hope it happens, but my free time to go joyride with a tech is rather limited.

I also notice when the car is idling in neutral with your foot off the clutch, there is a faint noise coming from the transmission that sounds similar to what a bad wheel bearing would sound like. If I engage the clutch, the noise goes away completely. I'm told this is normal for the car so I'm dismissing it as a potential indicator.

Has anyone had any issues in the past like this? I'm wondering if it could be the pilot bearing? Looking for any educated advice, I want my car back the way it should be!

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

As far as the noise goes when the clutch is engaged in neutral, that is indeed normal. Mine does it as well. Sounds weird, but normal.

My car (purchased brand new) also had some notchy shifting that was remedied by me draining the transmission fluid, and filling it back up with Ford Motorcaft Synthetic. I tried Redline as well and didn't have much success like others have had. Might be worth a shot.

And yea, in my experience, it is always best to do a ride along with the tech, or show them a video clip of the issue this way you have some kind of documented proof of the issue so they dont come up with the "no idea what you are talking about" excuse.

waltsacura

Thank you for the added confirmation on the idle noise. If it was a notchy shifting issue (which it also has) I would be fine with swapping for some different fluid, but this is full on super grind like the clutch forgot to do anything. I have always used either redline or amsoil in other cars, but i think the ford fluid is the way to go from my research too.

I guess I'll see about doing the ridealong if I can get some freetime that works for them. Setting up GoPro in the car is prolly a good idea as well, I have a couple of them, so I guess I'll rig that up if they can't fix it and give it back (they have already mentioned they will be charging me for the "diagnostics" which is infuriating, but I was told that's how it's going to be).

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

This is a bit of a stretch, but check your brake fluid as well. It shares a reservoir with the clutch line. Not sure if your friend did any work or if the system was never properly bled, but that would also cause significant clutch disengagement issues (air in clutch line).

Psylence

That's my old car! And everything was done by the dealer or by waltsacura

Can't believe they are giving him **** about this after I had the car in several times for the issue. First time they put in new synchros. Better, but still grindy on occasion. Then they put in atf which made it shift smoother but still grindy like before. Then she got put up for the winter, and I figured I'd revisit the dealer in the spring. Sold it to OP in the meantime to free up garagespace...

And here we are. WTF Mazda.

waltsacura

Yeah, that is a bit of a stretch:-) The brakes work perfectly and have never been cracked or bled in any way, so I'm not sure how air could get in there in the first place unless it was done incorrectly at the factory. Even so, the clutch feels perfect and I would think it would be quite easy to feel air in the line, it would also be more consistent at causing the shifting issue.

Unoriginalusername

I get 6th gear grinds regularly

zoom44

check that the clutch pedal itself is not breaking. it could be cracked enough that occasionally it gets slightly askew when shifting causing it to not disengage all the way

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

when you let the clutch pedal out with the car in gear does it engage early (low to the floor) or late (high near the end of pedal movement)?

waltsacura

The clutch feels perfect, engages at the same time every time (low to the floor like it's supposed to) and they have already looked at the clutch mounts at the stealership while performing the SSP82 Clutch Pedal Inspection.

waltsacura

sidenote: The original owner previously drove an awd car with 400hp and an 11lb lightweight flywheel and never had an issue with the clutch. I have never needed to replace a clutch in any car I have owned, one of my other cars (that I bought new) currently has 140k miles with the original clutch and it's still perfect.

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

clutch should engage mid-stroke i believe, sounds like you need to adjust the pedal. The clutch may not be disengaging all the way.

waltsacura

The clutch is engaging just like it does on the other rx-8's i have driven. The dealership said it's adjusted perfectly when they inspected the system.

Also, it's not an every time kind of thing, which would happen if it was the clutch adjustment. The problem is in the transmission, I'd bet a paycheck on it.

Dealer said the service manager that's been driving it is off until Monday and no one else there can help. I will be going there monday to go for a ride with him and see how that goes. Very frustrating.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

almost every RX8 I've seen has the free-play set on max and the pedal travel set on min. If you adjust both to the other end of the spec range it will provide more separation between the disc and p-plate-flywheel. The clutch engagement point will be high as a result. This seems to bug some people, but in my experience it's what works best and you'll get used to it in time.

fyrstormer

Okay, first of all, if you try to shift while the clutch is closed, you won't get grinding -- you won't get anything at all. The synchronizer cone(s) will just rub and rub and rub endlessly until it overheats and melts. (unless you know how to shift by rev-matching, but that's pretty far outside the range of normal usage, so let's ignore it.) Grinding happens when the torque load on the synchronizer drops low enough that the lockring is able to engage against the splines on the side of the gear BEFORE the gear and the input shaft are fully synchronized, so the lockring bounces against the splines. The reason this happens is because of abnormally low friction between the synchonizer cone(s) -- the mechanism that prevents the lockring from trying to engage the gear requires torque to be applied to it, and that torque can only be applied when the synchronizer cones have enough friction. If the synchronizer cones are damaged, contaminated, not fully bedded-in, or you're just not pressing hard enough against the shift lever, the necessary friction won't be there and the synchronizer won't work right -- and then you'll get grinding.

First of all, dump all the fluid out of the transmission and replace it with GL-4 gear oil -- not GL-5 (too slippery), and not ATF (not optimized for the friction surfaces used in a manual transmission). Then, test each synchronizer with the engine idling and the clutch closed by trying to shift into each gear -- you should be able to push firmly against the shift lever for a couple seconds without the synchronizer lockring trying to engage against the side of the gear.

If your transmission is like mine, you'll probably have trouble with 5th and 6th gears trying to engage with light pressure on the shift lever. You can fix this by lightly pressing the synchronizer against 5th and 6th gears for a few seconds, then releasing the shift lever so the synchronizer can cool down. Repeat with gradually increasing force on the shift lever, until you can press firmly without the lockring trying to engage. At that point, the synchronizer cones have been burnished clean and smooth, and the transmission should work fine. You may have to repeat this process every few months, but it's not a big deal.

waltsacura

fyrstormer- Thank you for the explanation, that was very helpful. Why the dealership put ATF in place of gear oil on a transmission with <10K miles on it is beyond me... but there is good news.

I went to the dealership today and took out the service manager for a long ride. I was explaining the issue to him for about 30 minutes, but couldn't get it to happen. I was headed back to the dealer and just a couples from being back I shifted from third to fourth and GRIND. He didn't say anything until I asked him what his thoughts were, so now he's going to speak with his manager. They took the car out after I left and it did it a whole bunch with the tech in the car, so I think they are finally convinced now. I was told they will be tearing the transmission apart again to make sure it was put back together correctly the last time they had it out. I told him I'd like the trans flushed and refilled with the correct gear oil (Told him specifically GL-4). Now I'm apparently getting their best mechanic there to look at it and he'll give me a report in a few days. Keeping fingers crossed for a new transmission, who know what kind of carnage has gone on in that box so far!

Relieved... will post more when I have more information from the dealership!

ASH8

Why is the Dealer stuffing around with this...

You obviously have a Trans which has not been correctly re-assembled (by them) from the very beginning from original owner.

I don't care what oil is used if box is not assembled correctly then they are wasting everyones time, and money.

Ring MNAO, tell them ALL the issues and get them to replace the trans with a complete new assembly while they are still available...from what I hear there are not many left.

IF MNAO are reluctant or you are many miles outside of warranty? then inquire about "goodwill", as a last resort offer a small contribution of $$'s, no more than a few hundred...that one is up to you.

The cost to MNAO would be about $600 for the complete Trans Assembly, plus install @ Dealer.

Here is the Part Number for S2 complete new 6MT with ALL the latest updates, ring another Mazda Dealer to find out if there are any stocks available in the USA, so you don't get the fob off of 'no longer available' or 'they don't have stock' BS.

P6Y1-03-000 (S2) Trans Assembly

Dealer Cost is about $1600, Owner Price about $2200.

The only thing the Trans does not come with is the Shifter (Swap them over)...and oil.

waltsacura

I just got off the phone with MNAO, they told me the dealership has the say in what is done to the car and even though the transmission has been out of the car twice, they fully trust their abilities to judge what has gone wrong and how it is to be repaired. The guy I spoke with at corporate was blowing me off and actually said "the issue now has nothing to do with the previous history." Later in the conversation he expressed that what I wanted to happen didn't matter relative to what the dealership decided and backed the dealerships actions so far. His advice was to wait on the dealerships decision and I quote "Knowledge is power". I then said "Maybe third time's a charm?"

Needless to say, I have no confidence in this dealership and their abilities and Mazda North America can eat a bag of dicks if they decide to "repair" my transmission and roll it out the door. The guy at MNAO told me it's just like a defective battery and the dealership has to test it to see what the issue is and even if my battery failed several times in the past, they need to verify it's condition before any warranty work is done. I am so frustrated with Mazda right now!

I thought the rotary was supposed to be the part on this car that blows up and everyone talks **** on, apparently for me it's the transmission.

ASH8

I personally have no trust in Dealers doing these transmissions correctly, unless they have a very experience mechanic who has done them before.

I guess I could also say then why did MNAO NOT issue a 2009/10 Mazda Japan TSB which the rest of the world got about replacing 5/6 Synchro's in early S2 boxes??, IMO because they don't have a lot of confidence in them (Dealers) removing and repairing successfully....in the early 09 days they were replacing S2's with complete new trans assemblies...in USA.

How the hell would a desk pusher know what previous history was or was NOT the issue??

Yes the Dealer (if experienced) is the correct one to recommend and diagnose.

So so far they have spent (at a guess) 10+ hours in removing this trans twice and pulling it apart, so times Dealer Warranty labor rate $ X 10 hours, PLUS the new parts replaced.

I suggest renewing the complete Trans from the beginning would cost a lot less and a lot less Customer angst.

It is up to you how far you take this....

Good luck..

ASH8

BTW: Sometimes you have to make more than one phone call..

waltsacura

I couldn't agree with you more about dealerships abilities. People think because they are taking their cars to the dealership, they know best. This is why I refer to the dealership as stealerships and take nothing to them except for warranty claims and state inspections.

Ben, the desk pusher at MNAO, didn't know a damn thing, but he took it as his job to blow me off and tell me "the dealership" will handle it as they see fit.

This is an early s2, so you would think Mazderp would step up to the plate and make it right. For now I'm without my car, the dealership has put over 100 miles on the car since I dropped it off, and I have no faith that it's going to be right. Maybe the dealership is trying to milk the warranty claim cause business is slow? I have no idea what's going on here, but it's quite discouraging to the credibility of Mazda. I don't mind if something breaks, it's what is done about the breakage that I have an issue with.

waltsacura

I've called twice in the last week. The first time I was told "if the dealership says there is no problem, then, according to MNAO, there is no problem," while this time I was told "The dealership will determinie the best course of action, and there isn't anything you can do about it to change what is done."

ASH8

Look...cars ARE complicated beasts, even more so today.

As a general rule Mazda is a very reliable brand, if a Dealer (a worker) does not get to 'experience' an issue often enough then actual repair knowledge is very thin.

Yes, Mazda does training, however when it does happen it is usually after hours, and most mechanics really don't want to do this without being payed, A Dealership may sent one tech to an event (usually new model).

That tech then leaves or whatever and the 'hands on' knowledge base is gone.

Yeah, there is a lot of complacency when a car brand is good.

While it should not be the issue, you are the second owner, nearing end of warranty (B2B).

I guess let them (Dealer) do their job and see how it is.

If it fails again, then I would not hesitate to call other consumer authorities and demand a new box.

waltsacura

I had a couple jobs working on cars at an Automotive repair facility and have torn through every aspect of a vehicle, with the exception of the transmission, cause yeah, it's complicated and I don't have the knowledge or desire to learn. Then again, I'm not an ASE Certified Mechanic who gets paid to learn that stuff. If the dealerships don't have the knowledge, then they should get the training they need, or know enough to stay away from the hard stuff like transmissions. I'm not looking for the transmission to heal itself, but I expect the dealership and Mazda to stand behind their product, which I keep getting put off from until I go hold their hand and show them the same issue they haven't fixed the first two times.

Yes I'm the second owner, but it's not even remotely close to the 6 year 60K mile powertrain warranty as the car has UNDER 12K miles on it! B2B shouldn't need to cover this failure.

I'm going to hold my breath and see what gets done, but since the first two times they tried to fix it haven't worked, I'm finding it hard to remain optimistic.

fyrstormer

It's because ATF is specially formulated to get sticky when it's squeezed into a microscopically-thin film, so it can help automatic transmission clutch discs stick to each other and transmit torque. (automatic transmissions don't have splined lockrings to force parts to engage with each other, it's all done through surface friction.) So they added ATF to your transmission to increase friction between the synchronizer cones. It's a ghetto fix, but supposedly it works for some people. The problem is ATF requires an oil filter to trap particulates so it can continue to work well, and manual transmissions don't have oil filters.

- - -

As far as taking the car to a dealership -- never trust someone to fix your old product if they want to sell you a new product. I take my car to the dealer for warranty issues, because the money doesn't come out of the dealer's pocket; for everything else I go to an indie shop.